Currently there is no rule which says whether or not vouches may be exchanged for any programming services. What I suggest is a rule be put in place that basically says yes or no. It could be viewed in the same way as GFX but then if I wanted to sell a program, would I be able to get vouches for that?

I like the idea.

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Thanks, anymore feedback?

I think the sale of java help used to be prohibited but it was recently changed to being allowed, so I support with the change in this that vouches also be aloud.

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I support this idea. I'm into programming and I'd like to be having vouches from that

Just adding to this, if I were to sell the Java help in an eBook then I could get a vouch for that.

But why should this be allowed and graphics not allowed to give vouches? Don't get me wrong, I fully support this, but we've fought and fought for it in the past and it hasn't happened. You make awesome codes in the form of text, I make aesthetically pleasing images. Who's to say when we sell these, there is no sense of trust passed between buyer and seller?

Good luck though, naturally I support and if this goes through I'll definitely have something to say about graphics vouches once again (as will so many others).

I feel obliged to agree with Fishy. If someone can vouch another for doing programming work, then the same should go with graphics. I can understand that vouching for programming work is a little different, because there is far less programming work done than there is Graphics work so it won't cause as much issues in the way of members gaining easy vouches, but it's the same concept. One is providing a service for another and someone still has to go first, so trust is still a factor.

So no, unless vouches are permitted for graphics as well.

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For sure I will have something to say if it passes. Coding and designing graphics is essentially the same practice. You are creating something from nothing, or more accurately you are fitting pieces of other things together and adding your own flair/touches.

Support If gfx can be vouched, programming can't stay aside, My opinion 8)

But Graphics can't be vouched :P

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I'll have to say that both should be vouchable, SALES. Of course, there should be a guideline to both so it's not abused to much.

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I definitely think programming should be vouchable (graphics should too). The main reason is that with private scripts, nobody can see the result until they actually buy it, unlike graphics which can be postes in a gallery or viewed in use.

Additionally, both graphics and selling a program both contain an element of trust that should be able to have a vouch. Vouches not only convey information of trustworthiness, but also about the other person's trading practices and ease of trade. This would definitely bring out more info and make the market a better place.

Also, if people are getting vouches for OMM'd trades...

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I think both should be vouchable!
And I support this too Hope it comes through for both programming and GFX again too.

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I'm pretty sure that the reason we don't allow vouches for graphics is because when we did the graphics forum was flooded with low quality no effort work that people were doing just for vouches. It was done in the interest of the graphics forum as much as to prevent easy vouches. I'm not opposed to allowing vouches for graphics sales though.

On topic: unless there's a rule somewhere saying that you can't vouch for programming work, then you can IMO. We don't specify everything that vouches can be given for, only what they can't. I can see how this could cause problems though, example: someone spends 5 minutes making an autoclicker, sells 100 copies, and then starts buying bils telling people to go first because they have 100 vouches.

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To those about to respond with this comment:
"Well, it's upon yourself to check in to the member's vouches to see if they're trusted. Or you can always use a Trusted Middleman too."

We all know that only 5-10% of those active in the Market Forum(s) do this. We have multiple new members joining Sythe every day getting scammed, either because they don't use a Middleman, or they don't take the time to look in to another member's vouches/background. This is not fair to them, nor to the loyal members of Sythe.

I don't see where getting a vouch for programming or graphics would merit anything anyways. When you receive vouch, it's to represent trust. "Trust", however, seems to be a very loose word used as of late. When you would vouch someone programming for you, or creating a graphic, you're not really trusting them with anything. You're just giving them a "Thank you".

It's much like when an Official Middleman trades with you. Some members may want an OMM to assist their trade for the value of $20.00. It's not so much a trust issue (in a case I'm trying to represent), but more-so to try and get an OMM's vouch at the end of the trade. In doing so, it would only show "fake trust" on their list. This is why we (Official Middleman), and not supposed to, or more-so (in my opinion) allowed to vouch members by OMM'ing. We don't trust either party with anything. We're simply... an Official Middleman for them, so no vouch should be left for either member involved. Members A & B may vouch each other and the OMM as well, but for no reason should an OMM vouch for them.

The system seems to be very confusing to members, but that's because they allow it to be. Such as it is being here.

Don't think about it too hard and you'll see what I mean. However, I do feel there should be a rule created that vouches for Programming are disallowed. They would certainly be frowned upon by myself, as it shows a lackluster effort in representing trust.

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I support this

I think alot of you guys work very hard on the programs you create to share/sell here on Sythe, and your hard work should be atleast rewarded with a vouch if the customer feels appreciative of your work.

If you are doing a different kind of sale down the road (lets say, RSGP for $), I think that it should be up to the discretion of the person buying from you to check your vouches, and determine whether your programming vouches determine your trustworthiness or not. Afterall, it is both trader's responsibilities to look into one anothers vouches & history on the site to determine a level of trust between one another. This way a guy with 50 vouches for selling programs on Sythe couldn't just automatically use those vouches to scam somebody in the market, as it would still be up to the person trading with him to decide whether those programming vouches actually indicate a certain level of trust or not.

If I were to trade with somebody with more vouches than me who had them entirely from selling copies of a self-created program for their own financial gain, I would definitely not consider that person "more trustworthy" by my own personal discretion, as a situation such as the one Clashfan describes could easily arise. I think other user's should do the same when looking through another person's vouches.

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Thanks for all your opinions on this matter. In no way am I saying that it should be allowed and more so that a rule should be created as there are rules in every other section. Programming could be a little different then graphics since I could just give them a non-functional program or code which they were TRUSTING me not to do. I do agree that if programming vouches are allowed so should graphics.

The case in which someone pays for their graphics before they are created is a perfect example of trust.

In the same way, people pay for my bot before they receive it, trusting that it will be as described to them.

Addition: your argument would apply to guide sales as well. I think it's pretty widely accepted that guides can be vouched and that these vouches help facilitate better trade in the guide market.

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And the people who do free training and gain someone 2 levels for a vouch is any different...

While you bring up valid points of what a vouch is supposed to mean, to most members it is simply a record of the trade going well, not necessarily that they even trust the other person. I agree with you, that they shouldn't be handed out like candy, but they are and will continue to be until they're regulated better. Until that better regulation comes, there is absolutely no reason not to allow graphics work and source codes to be vouchable (not a word) services.

How is selling GFX any different than selling gold or training someone's account? The answer: there isn't one. A trade is when one party buys another party's product. I don't see how the type of product or method of payment should dictate whether you can vouch for it or not.

How are you not trusting the other party? Just like with any good, the other person may not give you the GFX after you pay, or the person may not pay after you give him the finished piece. You're trusting the parties in a GFX or programming trade with far more value than training services, yet everyone and their dog can get a vouch for training someone's account up from 22-27 firemaking...